Q. Do you believe, then, that the leaders of black South Africa overwhelmingly support corporate withdrawal and that they are the legitimate democratic leaders of the black South African people?
A. Absolutely. In fact at the moment I don't even think their names are known; they operate underground. They've seen what happens to publicly known leaders. The young blacks, who should most legitimately be regarded as the valid leaders, all emphatically want withdrawal. The black mood in Southern Africa is away from tactical compromise as expressed by Muzerewa, [Jerome] Chirau, [Ndabaningi] Sithole, and Buthelezi.
Q. Do you think that it is wrong for people in the U.S. to debate the issue of corporate withdrawal on its merits, as perceived by us, when the legitimate democratic forces in South Africa have made it clear that they want our corporations to leave their country? Is this anti-democratic?
A. It is. I think this is happening here because there is a lack of detailed knowledge about how this issue is viewed in South Africa. There are a lot of concerns in this country which tend naturally to obscure concerns in a country 8000 miles away. For instance you find many corporation people saying, 'But who are these democratic leaders?' And it's not convincing to them when you say, 'I can't give you any names.' They send fact-finding missions to South Africa, and they come back and say, 'The blacks we spoke to don't want withdrawal.' Naturally, the blacks they speak to don't want withdrawal, unless they swim to Robben Island and get through the prison bars and interview the real leaders.
Q. It is commonly asserted that the black liberation movements in South Africa are under Marxist control, and that if they succeed South Africa will become a socialist society. Is this true?
A. It may be true that the liberation movements are led by Marxists, but I don't believe that a black-ruled South Africa will be rigidly ideological. Of course, you're asking me for a prediction of a post-revolutionary situation in which the revolution hasn't even occurred. Sure there will be Marxist influences, but there will be capitalist influences, too. There will be all sorts of influences: it's going to be a real African mix, such as you encounter in most parts of Africa. If Africans embrace Marxism, you'll end up not recognizing Marxism. I think that post-revolutionary South Africa will end up with a mixed economy, with a lot of things like the mines nationalized, as they should be, and a fair amount of what is called free enterprise.
Q. Will Western policies on investment and economic sanctions influence the nature of a future black-ruled South Africa?
A. I think it boils down to how the post-revolutionary regime there perceives the aid it's had. If sufficient pressures can be marshaled in the West to remove that veto from the Security Council, to start getting the West to behave as if it believes what it says, then there would be a chance of a reasonably democratic constitution. On the other hand if there is a long, bitter, drawn-out racial civil war, with an ever-growing need for the black liberation groups to get their aid from Russia and China, the new government won't be all that interested in a Washington-type constitution.
This interview was conducted by Stephen A. Herzenberg and William A. Schwartz.