Q. The U.S. has vetoed U.N. economic sanctions against South Africa. Do you support such sanctions?

A. Absolutely, yes. This question is complex, but there is a tendency by vested interests to make it more complicated than it really is. They throw out things like, 'Where would we get chrome from? Russia is the only other country that produces chrome.' My answer is, 'You get chrome from Russia.' They say, 'Why should Russia give it to us?' I say, 'Why should you give Russia all that wheat and corn?' And I have another answer, which I call my Elks-Rotarians argument: if chrome and gold and uranium are that important to the West, where's the West going to get them in a few years time when the blacks are running South Africa? They'll certainly remember who helped them and who didn't. It's a very short-term view that's being taken at the moment.

Q. What do you say to the argument that the labor practices of Western corporations make them a progressive force in South Africa?

A. They may be that, but it's a drop in the ocean. They affect so few black workers--much less than 1 per cent. I think that's irrelevant anyway because the black leaders themselves have discounted this. I think that claiming to be helping black South Africans is often the umbrella under which the corporations rationalize their participation in the South African economy.

Q. What is the position of the liberal white South Africans on corporate withdrawal?

A. The liberal white South Africans inside the country oppose withdrawal, but you must remember that to support withdrawal could be construed as a capital offense under the [South African] Terrorism Act. It's a political position that white liberals wouldn't even contemplate inside the country. Some who would like to see sanctions would never be able to risk saying that in public. While still in the country I myself had to avoid taking a public position on divestment--otherwise I knew I would get chopped. But I favored divestment, and all other kinds of pressure, from the morning we heard of Steve Biko's death.

Q. What is the position of the black political organizations?

A. The black organizations that count all want economic withdrawal and sanctions.

Q. What do you mean by the black political organizations that count?

A. There's an African rule. If you go right down from Kenya, through Angola, Zambia, Malawi, Zimbabwe, Namibia, and South Africa, you can spot pretty well those black organizations which are saying the things that will have mass support. It's not always those who have the largest numbers on their membership lists at the moment. In South Africa it would be the African National Congress (ANC), the Pan-Africanist Congress (PAC), and the Black People's Convention.

It is true that the masses of the South African people probably don't know what corporations are, but give a leader 20 minutes of free speech, which they haven't got at the moment, and the people will want withdrawal. Go to the leaders: what have [Nelson] Mandela, [Robert] Sobukwe, [Albert] Luthuli, and Biko said? What they have said is what the people will unswervingly want. What they have said is that they want foreign corporations out of their country.

Q. Aren't there some prominent blacks who oppose corporate withdrawal?

A. There are a number of blacks who say they are against sanctions and divestment, but I suspect they're not--because of the Terrorism Act. You just have to remember that a person who lives there and supports corporate with drawal and economic sanctions puts himself in jeopardy.

[Zulu] Chief [Gatsha] Butelezi is one of those who genuinely opposes withdrawal. But he's been ambiguous on this issue. There was a time when he pleaded for economic pressure--in the days when he was hoping to retain links with the liberation movements. However, he found that the liberation movements weren't acknowledging him, so now he's gone in with the present power structure in terms of sticking with things they'll tolerate. Further than that I wouldn't like to knock him. He's a courageous man who has criticized apartheid consistently.

But now he's sunk because he accepts a bantustan [the land areas allocated to blacks under the South African government's policy of separate development] position and a bantustan salary as a leader of the bantustan Kwazulu. Nominally he has a lot of supporters, but I think his position is eroding every day. He's in the position [Bishop Abel] Muzerewa was in Rhodesia a year ago. Open that society up, and let them all talk freely--let Mandela come off Robben Island prison tomorrow and say that Buthelezi is a no-no, which he would--and Buthelezi's support would melt like the snow in summer.