Hollis: Universities have a special duty in the area of affirmative action, and in addressing the problem of underrepresentation of people in various segments of society. We argue that they need certain kinds of skills, and the only place they can acquire those skills is in universities. Universities are gatekeepers and have a certain special duty in that regard I find that a lot of the choices that are made, particularly in faculty decisions and when one talks about mid-level and upper-level administrators has to do with this quaint thing called "fit," much more than it has to do with this thing called "objective qualifications." I have had, since I've been on this campus, a number of people comment to me about people not fitting; not that the people didn't have the qualifications, not that they didn't have the background, not that they would not make a contribution. It has something to do with what makes people who are here feel comfortable. And it has to do with some sense of having to share prestige, and share some other things that we like to keep to ourselves.
Bane: I'm pleased to hear Professor Mansfield say what he did about admissions policies, because I think the diversity of the student body is the right thing to keep in mind. I think to some extent, some of those same arguments were applied with regard to faculty, that there is an advantage to a university to having Blacks and women among its faculty. In paying attention to affirmative action, we've broadened our recruiting pool, we've made some special efforts to go out and bring people in to be interviewed who might not have been found by the old procedure. One more kind of personal thing since you brought it up. Was my being a women a factor in my appointment. Well I think it probably was, I think I would be foolish to deny that Do I feel terrible about that. Will no it's important for this school to have some women here. I would not have liked to have been hired just because I was a woman, I would not like to feel that somehow I was inferior to my peers. But to have that taken into account when they were looking at me, and being able to say. "Oh, yeah and she's a woman too, and that's nice, because that will be helpful with our women student, and with providing a women's perspective." It doesn't destroy my pride.
Mansfield: I think that when you speak of diversity, you must remember that diversity means diversity of contribution that each person is not just bringing characteristics, but bringing contributions to a community. I don't think it is necessarily the case that each racial or social or economic group in the United States is going to be like each other group. That I think is wrong, and that I think, is another mistake of affirmative action. Affirmative action freezes the status quo: it makes it seem that the professors which are the most highly prized and the ones which Black has been excluded from, are the ones which they should want the most.
Bane: It may very well be that groups dillerentially prefer to be lawyers than to be college professors. Well, so be it I don't think we're at the stage yet where we can say that so complacently though, because I think we still do have a history to get over. But I do think that the place where the University really should be worrying the most about the problem is at the level of educating the--students for example, making sure that the women are at least encouraged to take some math courses.
Crimson: To get more specific Nationally, 4.9 percent of post secondary teachers are Black. At Harvard, in 1980, 2.3 percent were Black, in 1983, 1.4 percent were Black. Why has the percentage of Blacks gone down.'
Mansfield: The situation is desperate. There are very few Black graduate students at Harvard.
Hollis: We must look beyond just how we produce one or two more sociologists in our department but begin to identify and encourage young under graduate minorities to move into the academic arena, whether it be teaching of administration. They can be persuaded, all of the choices are not made based on income. I don't know why people would suggest that Black people more than other people, want out of society nothing but money rather than prestige or a certain kind of relaxation. We must begin to stop pretending that there is an automatic conflict between equity of increased access and excellence. There is a lot of room between what is available and the ability to maintain both diversity and excellence on this campus. We must begin to move minorities from just those race focused activities such as the affirmative action office and the minority recruitment office, those offices where they are segregated and move them into finance. They have the ability to move into finance, they have the ability to move into governmental and political relations they have the ability to move into alumni affect. They have their own networks and they will bring more people into the University. But we've got to move to a critical mass on this University, and not into grate units, one person at a time.
Mansfield: About Mr. Hollis remark about Blacks looking to find jobs outside the automotive action area. I think the best way to do that however would be to abolish alternative action and do away with those special appointment which are institutionalized by alternative action. This, I think, would move us away from the tokenism of the 12 percent across the board approach Blacks now are perfectly capable of organizing themselves as individuals, and as a group to undertake positions which are not especially set up for them.
The responsibility should be placed on the Black students themselves, primarily they should be asked to think about what they want to do about what they want to choose, and what contribution they can make both to Harvard, and to their country. They should be asked to make their claims on the basis of their own drive as to what they can contribute not on the basis of past injustices, where they always have to accentuate the negative and, in effect, ask the white majority for justice on the basis of their own weakness.
Hollis: To the degree that you can not find tenured Black faculty on several faculties on this campus. I think that students can make decisions, but those decisions are less well-informed, and they are less well-prepared when they leave here, to interact fruitfully with society, and indeed, to accomplish the things that you would have them make choices about.